You come at it from a developers point of view.

I don't have that skill so all my stuff is written by someone else. However I do go for developers recommendations.

As a teacher I never designed or came up with the things I taught - I was just good at getting all the best bits and putting it into clear and understandable language.  Hopefully thats also what I do when I post advice on SEO.

If you can do both then you have an edge. However it is a different side of the brain that is required for each aspect (developing vs teaching) and it takes a while to get into a different zone if you still do both on a daily/weekly basis.

Vicky Robinson

Childrens Entertainer and Learn2entertainkids

Hi Vik,

it's just a really long arguement  I've been in the middle of for ages (not with anyone imparticular - other than the world at large).  I'm 100% for people teaching stuff, that's why people release the tools in the first place.  It's totally cool and I praise everyone who does it too.

I've never actually listened to a group of people who do this stuff at that end - I've always seen it as a software thing, with bullshitters talking it up.  However, I think my thoughts might just shed some light on the situation.   I might draw a picture (lol).

BTW: I get a lot of calls every month from specialist SEO companies run by sales teams.  I actually enjoy both subjects, but I would never set up a sales team, to sell something like SEO.  I also don't support people over selling the benefits as a science either.

The subject is massive..!!!!    And I only referred to stuff you do to a webpage.  I just like to bottom things out for my own sanity, otherwise I find myself reading discussion that I'd rather not.

Perhaps it helps others clear their brains of it too.
It's 100% imperative thing to do and so many people do not do it as a pre-requisit.  Amazes me..!!!!  Tools are all there.

REF: Devleopers point of view.  Yes, it is developers who create both logic, algorythm, format and flow.

I'm sure Karen will enjoy me bigging her up.  It bigs everyone up really..!!!

I suppose the better educated people are with this stuff around the 4N circuit, the better positioned  people will be to choose correctly.  I know the web people on here will all have their own views.

I was most enlightened by Les and his post about IMAP on 4N.

I wonder what people will say....

Skeeter, blogging here: http://www.tweetsbyskeet.com :: Bonus: Small Business Tips

We enjoy SEO.

We gain no pleasure, however, from the thousands of pounds the SME sector pay in SEO advice which is largely based on urban myth.

It is a topic wrought with hear say and emotion, and on forums we stay more or less away from it. Recently, I corrected a blatant untruth about SEO and was rounded on for being harsh!  Hence we avoid the topic. And quietly deliver for our customers.

Paul Norman
OrangeTree Development
SoleHeaven

Paul

Rather than open a can of worms,

I just thought it might clear some air with people who operate in the same space.  To me, the optimisation part is simply an administrative exercise and the SE marketing part is naturally the other bit.

Quite how a core administrative job gets so clouded I don't know.  It is a subject that is so simple, it baffles me why it gets talked up...   I hope what I wrote offers a little foresight without drudging anything up.

BTW:  My post was largely prompted by Ling, Paul, Les.

Skeeter, blogging here: http://www.tweetsbyskeet.com :: Bonus: Small Business Tips

It really isn't that hard to get your website optimised for search engines, it's not even that hard to code them properly (easier than driving most of the page builders in my opinion) .  The real fail is when people engineer their websites specifically for search engines rather than for the user.

Unless Google et al are going to be buying stuff from you the website user is infinitely more important than the search engine.  If you don't deliver a worthwhile site once it is found you have wasted your time, your dwell times will dwindle and bounce rates increase and eventually you will shoot yourself in the foot because you will look like an invalid search return and that is going to damage your ranking.

My best SEO advice is to say what you need to say to your customers quickly and clearly.  Get your page title, H1 tag and content all specific to what you want to say  and then make sure you tell the world about it by using every tool possible including the social media ones.  Avoid flash unless it is relevant to what you do and always validate your pages.

There is no black art ... just masses of common sense.

Karen OrangeTree
OrangeTree Development

Les's comment about sharing the knowledge is valid. And debate about on line marketing and visibility is good stuff!

The bit that vexed me was a comment on an SEO thread that was not an opinion, it was a plain, uncomplex error of fact. And still people were supportive of the post that made it!

SEO is a great deal about common sense, a great deal about trying to understand your customers, and, despite my purist coding tendancies, mostly about content.

There we are, I said it out loud!!!

Paul Norman
OrangeTree Development
SoleHeaven

I always miss the juicy stuff (ok not always)

I am really intregued as what you were referring to Paul, as I hope I am not falling into the trap. Like I said before I am not a developer so I dont have insider knowledge. I mostly do stuff for other people guided by them and do not get paid for my opinions on SEO. However I do want to be giving out the correct advice.

So far I agree there is no magic button and content is key - I am getting fully booked every weekend with my own SEO at a mimimum and not spending a lot of money on marketing at all.

I am upping my SEO effort so hopefully I can start to turn down work more (be even more picky) - or pass onto other Entertainers, also driving more traffic towards my online shop (that is not ready yet).

I just hope my actions don't break anything and make it worse.

Vicky Robinson

Childrens Entertainer and Learn2entertainkids

Are well in danger of just concentrating a bit to heavily on SEO rankings and not our customers needs as Karen rightly points out?

I don't know what people are talking about / referring to in the details of the last two threads.

I do know SEO is largely a: customer profile analysis > business > admin > monitoring type function.
On the subject of £ 1.50 a click, it is pretty cheap if you're selling things for £ 500 and you do so after 20 clicks.

I don't really care much for SEO and I also don't care much for what people say about it either.

What does bother me, although I never mention it (in proportion with what I read), is how people at different ends of the spectrum don't praise what is fact, known and so obvious it's unreal.

I think charging someone £ 50.00 per month (£ 500.00 over the annum) to check their website pages are correctly put together is okay in many contexts as long as the customer understands what they are buying and why.  It seems many buy SEO because someone ill informed says its imperitive, which I would happily challenge if I could be bothered, which I'm not.

I remain quite happy with the knowledge of how to put a one page website on to page one for a range of search terms - without any more pages being added, positioning has little to do any admin and this is what is so fascinating about "social" material, traffic relevance and enquiries.

I know a guy who owns a sales based SEO company and I've "had it out with him".   He agreed that he profits from poor knowledge, confusion and scirmish in the marketplace, which I find hard-nosed and "totally out of order" and "well below the mark" as he will take anyones money.  The way to combat this is clearly a sharing of good practice.  I would expect (everyone) on here has their own customer groups that totally don't conflict at all with each other.

On the subject of "black art" - there are those who do practice such things and attempt to trick the algorythms - which I also find intolerable.  In addition there are specific applications of search engine placement, as Ling mentioned, that are approaches / tools / whatever that are effective from marketing point of view - nothing to do with rankings but everything to do with normal marketing.

Whatever Paul says I probably agree with, although haven't the fogiest what is being referred to.

In support of Les, Joomla, does require module installation, upgrade and technical administration all of which is costly, but necessary to make a SE ready thing.  Joomla is a thing you need to input data in to.  It does make sense to educate, inform and share general principles that improves peoples own standing.

Generally, I would be happy for any of the web people on this forum to set my tags.  I couldn't really see a reason why
I (personally) would ever want to pay more than 0.10p for it.

I didn't mean to rock off a debate, I was merely offering some form of explanation as to why people might have different views on the same subject.

It is a bonkers subject as is SM (or social networking), although both (minus the networking) are key components to anything related to marketing things online.

oooops. sorry if it was me.

Vik, I don't think you could be part of a more sensible discussion IMHO.

It would seem to me that nearly all parts of the SEO market are represented in one way or another on this forum...

SEO for me is a subject that needs to be nipped in the bud. 

It frustrates me and is essentially why I do (or at least one of the reasons) I do not support the web market in a public way.  I would say "use it" rather than "speak of it".

It's not rocket science, but it is rocket fuel and can add some serious collateral to any online business that doesn't have it.

Skeeter, blogging here: http://www.tweetsbyskeet.com :: Bonus: Small Business Tips

That is personally what makes me feel like leaving spaces.

Although on occassion, people do come up trumps with NEW interesting conceptual ideas worth hypothesising.   I am all for understanding "changes in the landscape".  I don't really want to have to read them, but for instance when I saw a person by the same name as a company and found that persons Facebook page and other stuff was appearing above their own marketable name, I was shocked and figured the landscape had changed.

I would rather not comment, especially from work, about SEO, but if anyone does say stuff that is "off the mark", I don't mind adding a comment to steer either a) the discussion or b) stop someone making a huge mistake.

It does make me laugh how WP and its known quality for updated content does get rankings within days.  This is not, in my opinion, SEO Expertise, but it is credit to the systems architects designing a good product for the real world.

PM me if you see a duff thread on SEO.  It's not my bag, but am happy to support a GOYA'N if known things are contradicted.

Skeeter, blogging here: http://www.tweetsbyskeet.com :: Bonus: Small Business Tips

I keep getting phoned up by people telling me they can get on page one of google.  Great I say, but first please google "social photographer swindon" and tell me what you see.  The call doesn't last long after that.

I have managed that not by paying a monthly fee, simply getting a website built well in the first place and then adding content to it as well as making sure I am active on here and 4N.  It worked for me and I know I am not a guroo in the matter but I think I have a basic idea of how what I do affects my ranking.

Bruce
Lantern Photography
Ring today on 01793 230 511

 you would expect it be "built right" - sadly that's not the case and people "sell short" the basics of html.

Skeeter, blogging here: http://www.tweetsbyskeet.com :: Bonus: Small Business Tips

Thats where my due diligence came in when I chose my web designer/builder.

I knew what I wanted, how much I wanted to pay and how to spot bull.  Tom at Techsolvers was the only person who listened to my requirements and didn't treat me as thick.

Bruce
Lantern Photography
Ring today on 01793 230 511